Cylinder Boring

[DJK1505]

Well good and bad news from the dealer. The part will be here tomorrow, (Head Gasket), and they will have it done when I stop by thursday after work. So Boring it or any head work is not an option, I want my bike back.

But, I have researched a bit and am going to order an 03 r1 head. Wiseco finally got back to me, they will build any piston I want for 685. Then adjustable cam gears about 100 bucks. So for less than a grand I could possibly have the first FZ802. LMAO. I'll keep ya'll posted on what works out. I will have a true 800 damnit!!!!

 

[Speedo007]

Can you go bigger? I mean if I was to have that done and spend that money, I'd want the first FZ950 or something, would be a nice torque increase hehe With your power commander, Two brothers and 1-, +2 sprocket your bike must be fun!

 

[DJK1505]

My bike is an FZ8, so I want it to be an 800. Once I am there and have played with that for a while, Im sure the next step would be 825, 850, heck 900. I will keep playing with it until I have another toy I like better. LMAO!

DJ

 

[DJK1505]

Sorry, to answer your question, we should be able to go bigger. When I was researching our bikes I came across a great review the guy broke the whole bike down, and part of it was on the engine. He stated it is a 2001-03 R1 engine, with a smaller cylinder bore, and different cams. So from that bit of knowledge I believe we could make these bikes a 1000 quite easy.

The 02-03 pistons are the ones to buy, they are like 0.03mm tighter fit into the cylinders, the piston is a 74mm piston (the FZ8 uses a 68mm piston). So in theory you have about 6mm you can go.

Once I get the bike back, I will never take it to a shop again. So the next time anything happens, or next winter comes around, I will be inside this engine and hopefully be able to give you guys some use full info. Or show you guys a cool bike!

DJ

 

[FZ1inNH]

The point regarding boring the stock cylinders is that you would remove the coating applied and then have the rings riding on pure (softer and more porous) aluminum instead of the hardened ceramic/silicone coating that Yamaha put in there. Your life expectancy of the cylinder heads will be greatly diminished. I wouldn't recommend this.

 

[Speedo007]

Maybe it would be possible to bore bigger and then put a sleeve so that its not a soft porous aluminum?

 

[lothodon]

I know that's how my Harley was set up. There was a steel ring insert into the head, a sleeve as stated above. I was under the impression when reading about the FZ8 that it used the FZ1 heads with sleeves to drop it to an 800.

 

[NJFz8]

as far as the cams go, what are we looking at for options there, I know our bikes have very DOCILE grinds on them. I wonder if the cams are from another bike or we can use adj. cam gears from an r1?

 

[RyanSterling]

I know that's how my Harley was set up. There was a steel ring insert into the head, a sleeve as stated above. I was under the impression when reading about the FZ8 that it used the FZ1 heads with sleeves to drop it to an 800.

That is what I thought as well. In fact all I ever hear is that the FZ-8 block is a sleeved R1. Which from a manufacturing perspective makes sense anyways. Re-use the same tooling.

 

[FZ1inNH]

I've never found supporting documents for a sleeved down FZ1 head but this is from Sport Rider magazine and a feature story on the FZ8. Seems to be all new design above the last Gen R1 crankcase.

Perhaps the only thing more aggressive than the FZ8’s less-is-more streetfighter look is its newly designed 779cc engine, which Yamaha engineers developed to provide strong midrange power and a crisp, controllable engine response.Even still, some of the FZ8’s engine design has been lifted from other Yamaha models. For instance, the FZ8 engine is built around the same crankcases as the previous generation R1 (as is the FZ1) and runs an R-series-derived crankshaft. From there up however, the engine is practically an all-new design.

One of the biggest differences between the FZ1 engine and the FZ8 engine is the newly designed cylinder head of the latter, which runs only four valves per cylinder, as opposed to five. To give the bike a smoother torque output and broader range of power, Yamaha matched long 125mm outer intake funnels with even longer 150mm inner intake funnels and installed a large-capacity 7.8-liter air box. And to further adapt the engine’s power characteristics, valve timing has been changed, as have the cam profiles.

Compared with the FZ1, compression has been bumped from 11.5:1 to 12.0:1, bore has been decreased from 77mm to 68mm and stroke remains at 56.3mm. Also compared to the FZ1, the FZ8 features a lighter crank that contributes 30 percent less inertial mass and provides for quicker revs. In an effort to further reduce rotational mass and to make the bike more user friendly, the engine features a compact clutch layout that has two fewer plates and a more practical gearbox with a lower final gear ratio. The fuel injection system went under the knife as well and now instead of featuring a 45mm throttle bore, the FZ8 system runs a narrow 35mm bore for a crisp, smooth throttle response.

Read more: 2011 Yamaha FZ8 - Sport Rider Magazine

 

[DJK1505]

The article reads the "all new" design is in the head. Nothing about the cylinders or case being different. This being said, you should be able to take our case, bore the cylinder out to 74mm and throw a 2001-2003 R1 head on and you have a 1000. the head design is different, one less valve per cylinder, and different valve lengths. That is totally thrown out the window when you install the head from an R1.

The cylinder coating has absolutely nothing to do with the longevity of the cylinder head life. Now cylinder wall wear yes, but head; sorry no. I have built and seen quite a few different engine being built, and never heard of ceramic coating cylinder walls, I am not an expert on this, and there might be something out there but I have not read or seen this myself. Your first article, I read nothing about cylinder wall coating, but did read that the cylinder block was made out of a partial silicone mix. This could be what you are speaking of!

Now all rebuilt engines will have an assembly lube that you line the cylinder walls with,and all moving parts with, but this is a special lube that lets you move the internals around without oil in the engine. I will keep doing research and looking into this. I am not wanting to go to a 1000, just want a true 800. I believe my idea of boring out to 69mm, same stroke, with the r1 head with adjustable cam gears and I will have a pretty unique true 800.

Thank you all for looking into this and your ideas!!!!

 

[DJK1505]

I know that's how my Harley was set up. There was a steel ring insert into the head, a sleeve as stated above. I was under the impression when reading about the FZ8 that it used the FZ1 heads with sleeves to drop it to an 800.

The head does not have cylinder sleeves. The sleeves are in the cylinder jug, where the cylinder bore actually is. The head has nothing to do with the cylinder bore or sleeves. A sleeve is just what it states, a sleeve that is pressed into a cylinder bore to decrease the bore dimension. It is a very common practice on diesel engines and a lot of gas engines. You stamp one block, and a few different sleeves. Saves on tooling, production, material costs, etc.

 

[FZ1inNH]

The cylinder coating has absolutely nothing to do with the longevity of the cylinder head life. Now cylinder wall wear yes, but head; sorry no. I have built and seen quite a few different engine being built, and never heard of ceramic coating cylinder walls, I am not an expert on this, and there might be something out there but I have not read or seen this myself. Your first article, I read nothing about cylinder wall coating, but did read that the cylinder block was made out of a partial silicone mix. This could be what you are speaking of!

Please read here: Technology, Motorcycles and Scooters, Ceramic Cylinder Plating and also the quote from Yamaha Japan below.

I'm just trying to be helpful and give you some knowledge about the Yamaha design as I've studied it. Several of the FZ forums have all been through this type of thought process and all have dismissed it. The best option for you to understand the makeup and get the actual FZ8 cylinder makeup is to contact Yamaha Corporate and ask for an engineer to call you back. I'll admit that there is still the question regarding whether the FZ8 has this technology and I've searched relentlessly but I think only a Yamaha Engineer can answer this. The dealers here didn't even KNOW what DaASiL was!!!

DiASil Cylinder

Features of the technology

The DiASil Cylinder is an all-aluminum cylinder made possible by an exclusive Yamaha aluminum forging technology. Because it uses a 20% silicon aluminum alloy, it is possible to create a cylinder wall that is so hard and durable that it eliminates the need for a conventional steel cylinder sleeve. And, because the cylinder is all aluminum, it has excellent heat dissipation qualities and reduces engine weight at the same time. (Aluminum dissipates heat at 3.1 times the rate of steel.)

Effect (User Benefits)

(1) Maintenance-free - Because of the outstanding hardness of the DiASil cylinder wall, there is a substantial reduction in abrasion compared to a steel sleeve cylinder. (A reduction of 2 to 3 times according to Yamaha tests.) This eliminates the need for costly maintenance like sleeve replacement.

(2) Reduced oil consumption - Unlike a steel sleeve which is engraved with fine grooves to facilitate oil lubrication, the DiASil cylinder is given a surface treatment that helps maintain an ideal oil film on the cylinder wall and thus reduces oil consumption.

(3) Improved fuel economy - Because the cylinder, piston and surrounding parts are all made of aluminum, cooling is quick and efficient. This prevents heat-induced deterioration of engine performance and ensures ideal combustion efficiency.

 

[DJK1505]

The special coating is not a coating at all, it is the metal that makes up the cylinder. The special silicone mixed aluminum is the whole cylinder. So you "should" be able to bore out the cylinder and still have the special metal as your wall once you are done.

I am going to try and contact Yamaha Engineering to see if this is correct. And I will find out if the 5 valve R1 head will work with the 69mm piston. Hopefully he will spend a few minutes with me to do the fuel/ air math, and we could put some Hp numbers down on paper. If he will spend 5 minutes with me I could have this all solved and a path for us to go if you wanted to make your bike a true 800. Who knows we might just need to do a valve job, and valve adjustment, some valve timing with the stock heads and a small bore and we would have a 130hp 800CC bad ass bike!!!!!

 

[Speedo007]

Looking forward to see how this turns out!

 

[RyanSterling]

Not entirely sure what Yamaha uses, but I know that on modern ford performance engines it is in fact a coating applied to the cylinder walls. I have a tech article about it somewhere. Anyways, that hasn't stopped plenty of people from boring and stroking the crap out of em.

I actually like the fact our blocks are sleeved. From a mechanics perspective it makes me feel like if something ever went bad it's a lot easier to re-sleeve than re-bore. I think the idea is cool, probably wouldn't be my choice but hell man I say it's worth a look anyhow. That being said I am a fan of most anything mechanical in nature which sounds suspect at first.

 

[DJK1505]

I apologize I did not read the link. Again Im sorry for the dispute. Hmmmm, really changes things up a bit. But what about coating the piston instead then. If I bore out the coating, couldn't I just get the pistons from Wiseco coated. Jesus way too many questions, now I see why all other attempts were dropped. Too much BS and you can not get any definitive answers. I have an email into Yamaha Motor Corp. asking for some engineering assistance. Maybe I just opened a can of worms I will never be able to understand.

 

[Sschwar4]

have you looked at the 12's fuel tank? I think i read somewhere it is a 4.8 ga tank now.

According to Yamaha specs, they are the same, 4.5 gallons.


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[DJK1505]

Here is the answer I received from Wiseco:

"The cylinders are plated with a material everybody calls Nikasil. To go to an oversize piston you have to have the cylinders bored and replated. You can not run pistons on the aluminum . There are 5 companies in the US that can bore and replated the cylinders."


These are a few I have found from a two second internet search:
Millennium Technology
US Chrome Corp.
Racers Toy
Luke's Racing
and a few others.

I am pretty sure a few of these companies I just listed are just vendors for the service, they do not actually do the plating. So with this knowledge, I am going to start my research on a company to do the cylinder work and an estimate. A few of these companies offer just the coated sleeves you press in, I wonder if I could get an R1 engine and sleeve that down to make it fit my 800 desires, for much cheaper than I could build my current 779 engine up.:hbwall: Or I could just slap a few decals on my bike that say "FZ-779" and be done!

 

[Deleted member 438]

DJK1505, why not try to get a complete r1 engine that fits and bolt it in? Not sure if this is possible, but it sounds like it might be.